• Joe and Joni Rocco, The Influence Ecology Podcast, Transactional Competence, Transactionalism

Teach to Know with Joe and Joni Rocco

I’m often confounded by those who claim to know something but can’t teach it to me. The famous Nobel winning physicist Richard Feynman understood the difference between knowing something and knowing the name of something, and it’s one of the most important reasons for his success.

Richard Feynman lived from 1918 to 1988. He made his mark first with his work on the Manhattan Project then won a Nobel Prize for his work in developing an understanding of quantum mechanics, and finally was a much-loved professor of undergraduate physics at Caltech University.

As he explains it, there are two types of knowledge, and most of us focus on the wrong one. The first type of knowledge focuses on knowing the name of something. The second focuses on, well – knowing something. These are not the same thing. Your competence first depends on the accuracy of your understanding. He developed an intuitive way to understand called The Feynman Technique.

The Feynman Technique starts with writing out something as if to teach it to a child. If you struggle, you have a clear understanding of where you have some gaps. That tension allows you to discover the edge of your knowledge. As competence begins with knowing the limit of your abilities – this is where the learning starts. Go back to the source material and re-learn it until you can explain it in basic terms. Then organize the concept into a simple story that flows. Read it aloud. If the explanation isn’t simple or sounds too confusing, that’s a good indication that your understanding in that area still needs some work. But if you genuinely want to be sure of your understanding, run it past someone (ideally who knows little of the subject). The ultimate test of your knowledge, Feynman asserts, is your capacity to convey it to another.

This conveyance is where competence and teaching go hand in hand. Learning is a reciprocal, cooperative effort, requiring inquiry and engagement on the parts of both students and teachers. In doing so, both parties learn a great deal about the subjects AND themselves. Together they discover something new while validating or modifying their approach, understanding and the application of that knowledge in practice.

On knowing something Feynman says; “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.”

Joe and Joni Rocco are life-long learners. Married for 20 years, with four children and a thriving business, they have a newfound role as teachers to their family, their employees, and the community. They own Artistic Floors by Design, a boutique wood floor contracting business in Denver, offering Colorado’s only Nationally Certified, Award-Winning Wood Floor Advanced Master Craftsman.

Studying with Influence Ecology since 2013, their income has increased, their relationship and family life has improved, and they are working on training their employees to experience the same satisfaction with their skills. We interviewed them in 2016 and as part of our ‘where are they now’ series, wanted to offer an update. To develop her competence, Joni has graciously offered to mentor other students at Influence Ecology and more recently, joined our faculty. Why? Teaching allows mastery not found by any other means.

Below you’ll find a transcript of this podcast episode that has been edited for your reading pleasure. You’ll also see links at the bottom of this post where you can find more information on the people and ideas mentioned in the episode.

by John Patterson
Produced by: John Patterson & Tyson Crandall

“I have not yet found an industry in which the transactions cycle does not apply. It exists everywhere, from wood floors to our married life […] It’s just that your feet are in a different spot during some of those transactions, but there is no industry where it doesn’t matter.”

Joni Rocco: I’m Joni Rocco, married to the great Joe Rocco, who is Colorado’s only nationally certified, award winning wood floor advanced master craftsman. So, he handles all of the production and operations of all of the sales.

Joe Rocco: I am Joe Rocco. I’m a 26 year hardwood floor mechanic, and a 15 year business owner. Joni and I endeavor, together our clients, to produce, I think, two unique experiences.

One, usually they can’t drag people into their houses after we’re done, because people don’t want to walk on our artwork, and then once they actually get them into the house, they can’t drag them out because people don’t want to go home to their own houses.

John Patterson: That’s great. That’s well said. Joni, when did you first start participating?

Joni Rocco: In 2013. So, six years.

John Patterson: Fantastic. So, anything else you both want to say about what’s happened to date?

Joni Rocco: Well, we’re always evolving. I think that’s important to remember, because when we were on the podcast a couple of years ago, it felt like we had done it, you know? I mean, we felt like things were going really well, but there were other things that we wanted to do. So, now we have a couple more employees who work for us, and so it’s this constant evolution and change. A constant reinvention of what we’re doing. So, I would say that is a really big piece if it, is that we celebrate our achievements, but at the same time, continue to move forward. That’s definitely been a huge part of your program and the learning that we’ve had around that. I really don’t remember what our life was like, I think I blocked it out, before we started [inaudible] Influence Ecology. Because it’s just so much better. Sometimes it’s harder, but it’s better. It’s a better harder.

Joe Rocco: Yeah, absolutely.

John Patterson: Say something about the awards that you’ve won and the recognition that you’ve had.

Joni Rocco: He doesn’t like to brag about himself, so it’s not just him now. We’ve had our employees win some awards, and that’s been really exciting, too. So, there are three major contests in our industry, and we have won awards in each of those contests, and those contests are international. They’re open to countries and places like Dubai and Russia and Australia and France and England, New York, LA. So, to say we have competed against and won is like the Grammys of our industry, the Oscars of our industry. So, that’s an honor, and we are counting 11 of those awards right now, plus Business of the Year through our local Chamber of Commerce, which represents 600 businesses, and I think more than 14,000 employees. In 2016, we won that.

John Patterson: That’s fantastic. Congratulations to you both.

Joni Rocco: Thanks.

Joe Rocco: Thanks.

John Patterson: That’s really fantastic. I love, I think small businesses are big. I think they’re a big deal. They’re the fabric of this country, they’re the fabric of many countries, and when people do it and do it well, then they ought to win awards and be held up, so it’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you both here.

Speaking of all of that, one of the things that I found useful about you both, and what I could hear and what you just talked about is that you’re spreading the wealth now. So, what I mean by that, and I see you both shaking your head. You’re spreading the wealth a bit, and so you’re spreading the wealth, as you just said, with some of your staff who are now winning awards themselves. But I would bet that you’re training them, you’re helping them, you’re teaching them what you know. You’re mentoring them in some way, so anything you want to say about that?

Joe Rocco: That’s probably my realm, because I handle all of the production and all the operations, and I have to say that Joni and I have had numerous discussions surrounding this topic.

I came from a business where I didn’t feel valued, where I came up through the business as just kind of, I was a laborer. It was kind of difficult, because you knew you were doing good work and you were asking, you know, to be recognized, but you just weren’t. So, it’s always kind of been in the back of my head that I wanted to own a business and be able to add value and lift up my own employees. So, shortly after we, or I, took the program, it became quite evident to me that your program provided at least a framework so that I could achieve that aim through building a technical manual for our company, and running our business in a way that met those aims to provide value and say thank you to our employees, who, even though they’re our employees, and I really don’t want to call them our children, although sometimes they act like it.

You know, because you always want to keep that separation there, but we really have an ethic around them being a part of this business because they provide so much value to it. I don’t want them to ever think that I’m the man and they’re just providing me with their labor and I’m making all this money, because that’s the farthest thing from the truth. So, we’ve heavily invested in their education. We’ve always recognized their input in the awards that they’ve won. We pay for their training, and we’re eventually looking at some type of an employee ownership.

All of those things are because we have an ethic and an aims surrounding our business that you guys provided as a framework to construct that with. So, that’s been super important.

The real icing on the cake is our clients now, when they write about us, they don’t necessarily write about Joe and Joni. They write about Kevin and Paul and what they did. How that worked and the communication. So, the proof is really in the pudding that it’s really working amazing.

John Patterson: What’s that been like for them?

Joni Rocco: You know, you’d have to ask them, probably.

Really, there’s this conversation around the trades that says, “That’s a good option to fall back on.” And in my opinion and my observation of watching the four of them do their work, it’s nothing to fall back on. If that’s the way the narrative is in this country, I’d like to take part in changing it, because the trades build art and we design dreams and environments for people to live in, and we make this country great.

I mean, how do you get your milk? How do you get your chicken? Somebody drove it to you, somebody made it for you. To say that it’s something to fall back on, it just gives me chills to think about the potential and the opportunities. So, they’d have to say what they think about it, and they’re pretty quiet sometimes. But I mean, they’re a part of it, and they know they’re a part of this business, they’re a part of skilled trades, they’re a part of the industry. They’ve had conversations with other industry leaders, they’ve traveled to take trainings. They matter to us, and I think that they would say that they know that they matter to us. They each have our foundation document, which is something that I stole from Influence Ecology and recreated for us. So, they know that they matter, that that’s part of who we say we are, is based on who they are.

Joe Rocco: I think for me the last, probably, capstone of it is that your program has been so impactful for us that eventually we will ask them to be part of the program, so at least they have some basic understanding of where we’re going. But also that it adds so much value to their own life, in producing their own aims and trying to meet those aims.

John Patterson: That’s great. I’m curious about the way in which what you’ve learned to, sort of, [inaudible] throughout the ecology of your [inaudible] you touched. Generally speaking, when people do our programs and they thrive and they succeed and they see things working, then they can’t help but share it. They can’t help but tell people, or they can’t help but teach people. Joni happens to be somebody that is mentoring our programs, because she, like many, are smart enough to know that there’s a kind of mastery available when you’re teaching people something. Joe, if you’re teaching what you’re teaching, I’m sure you could also speak to the real value of having to describe to someone or teach somebody something that’s … you’re just so skilled at without, you know, you have to stop and put it into words and make it real for people and so forth.

So, there’s a reaching through, not just your staff, but also into the lives of customers or perhaps into the community or the [inaudible 00:18:35]. I just am curious about how your success has sort of reached into the fabric of the community in any way. Anything else you want to say about that?

Joni Rocco: Definitely. It matters in terms of how we present your education, and I think that people, especially our customers, will say to us, “I’ve never had an experience like this before.” So, there’s the product and the process that we go through. One of the things that I learned from my experiences in your coursework is that we are the expert in what we do, but we are also the expert in teaching people how to engage with us, how to hire us, and then how to transact with us. That has really become important to both Joe and me as we watch our kids grow up and be a part of our greater community, be a part of the church that we belong to, and how do we work with those folks in that community? All of the different aspects of our life. How do we teach people how to work with us to build meaning? To not just get something like a paycheck, but to build meaning in both of our lives, in both parties lives.

Joe Rocco: I think for me, probably the light bulb went off, I mean, I think everybody grasps the concept of reciprocity in business and life, you know. But I don’t think, at least from my experience, I never understood that, you know, I think I was always waiting for somebody to give me something and then I would reciprocate. Doing Influence Ecology, I think I finally realized that it’s okay to give first and, maybe you don’t receive it in kind, but just the fact of giving creates that reciprocal nature.

We went to a local arts [inaudible] Parker a couple of weeks ago and we decided, kind of on a whim, that we would help them out with some flooring needs that they needed, you know, because we wanted to support the arts and all of that. Just through that endeavor, we were rapidly [inaudible] but we were recognized publicly while we were at this other event. I mean, it was amazing the number of people that just came up and said thank you, you know, for giving. Then a couple even called us later to say, “Hey, can we get an estimate?” So, not that we were looking for it, but that’s kind of an aside from what you get from the reciprocity that we learn in Influence Ecology, I think.

John Patterson: That’s great.

I’m thinking of, in the United States- for all of our listeners, by the way, there’s people listening from all over the world. I’m thinking of a program called Fixer Upper in the United States, and I see you both are familiar with that. For those who don’t know it, Fixer Upper is a television show and there is a couple, Chip and Joanna Gaines, and they’ve basically started just by flipping houses and then they basically have built a small empire worth probably many millions of dollars. Many, many millions of dollars. Sometimes, in speaking with you both, I think of them because they’re both people who are not only committed to doing great service and the help that they provide flipping a house, but they’re also committed to giving people a kind of home, or a kind of experience that they cherish for years to come. At the same time, it’s my experience of them that they’re always at work on, not just flipping houses, but building the community and tending to the community.

So, Influence Ecology, in the very early parts of what we teach, we’re training people to transact for more of what they want. We’re training people to produce influence and compliance throughout their transactions, whether or not they’re small transactions or large transactions. But if you take influence and compliance out into the community, and people are observing you thrive, they’re observing you succeed, it’s natural for them to come and say, “Hey, what are you doing? Can I have a little of that? What are your tips?” And it would be natural, of course, to, as I said, share the wealth. To mentor, to help out, to teach, to offer a little wisdom here and there. And I’m wondering if you have anything else to say about that kind of influence in the community at large.

Joni Rocco: I think a lot of it matters if you know who you are, then you know how you can transact and communicate better with other people. I use the example of me being a performer, and going out and selling work. There are times when people ask me questions, and instead of having to say no to them, we’ve created a terms sheet, so that I can put that in front of them and say, “These are the things that we do and don’t do, and this is my gift to you.” Because as a contractor in the construction industry, you usually don’t find out in writing beforehand what is going to happen inside of your home. But this helps speed up production, and then you can ask me all of the questions that you want to ask me, and then I help our employees to make this project go smoothly.

So, there is some of that, like a, “Whoa, this is really different.” So, when that happens, you take the opportunity to share some of our learning. We talked with a few real estate agents, because they’ll say things like, “I have a builder you should meet.” And we say, “That’s great, but we’re good.” Because [inaudible] that’s not our customer. There are a couple of really good builders in town that we do work for when they need something that’s very specific and specialized. But other than that, our customer is somebody who appreciates being educated and understanding the product and the process.

That’s, I think, a reflection of your education, because you do something very similar. You teach people how to work with you throughout the programs. I’m really enjoying the mentoring experience, because I get to watch you teach it as opposed to just try to focus on the content coming my way, but to be able to observe you attend to helping people meet their aims. That’s just been a tremendous experience for me.

John Patterson: I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. Because, you know, part of, for anybody, you start a company and you start to train and develop other people and you start to mentor other people and you start to realize what you know. You start to … you start to take stock of the things that you haven’t really ever had to explain to people. They’re just inherent, they’re a thing you know.

So, you start to teach something, and Joni, you’re now, you’ve been invited to be a mentor with Influence Ecology’s programs and you’ve been mentoring for a few programs. You know, mentoring, from our point of view, is a commitment to mastery through teaching. That there’s always something that you master when you have to teach it. Or we could say it a different way, that you don’t know something until you do it. But there’s a kind of fitness that comes with practice or a fitness that comes with my having to put what I know into words, give it to another person, have them do that thing in such a way that it produces the same result I got. That’s not easy, and people assume it is, but it’s not easy.

So, I’m watching you both shake your heads. You know, for whatever reasons, whether or not it’s teaching somebody exactly what you do and the floors that you, you know, your beautiful artwork. Or, Joni, you’re teaching people the fundamentals of transaction program. So, I’m curious to hear from both of you a little bit about what you’re learning through teaching. What are you observing about that?

Joe Rocco: I observe, at least in the operations portion of our business, trying to teach our technicians that, and I think you hit it right on the head. Your breadth of knowledge, the breadth of your experiences, there’s so much value and it’s almost incomprehensible to be able to try and narrowly define every consequence and potential of, if you don’t do this exactly like I say to do it, like you said, you’re going to end up with a different outcome. So, being very specific, almost to the point of, and for us and because of your program, we have a technical manual that basically says, “This is how you do it, and if you follow these exact words and do these exact steps, we should get the same outcome.”

We had a little bit more of a challenge. Well, I’m sure you do too, because some of our employees aren’t Native American or English speaking, and so you get into that issue of, okay, does this word mean the same thing in the same context? So, that becomes an issue. What I’ve taken away, at least from our guys, is if I ask them, if I explain something and then ask them, “Do you understand?” And they say, “Yes.” That might not actually be the honest truth. They might have understood it the way they understood it, but it’s not necessarily the way I wanted them to.

So, for me, I have to say, “Did you understand?” Yes is their usual response. “Okay, now repeat it back to me, and then I can see if you can … ” and I know you’ve done this in some of your sessions, where you say just a small sentence, repeat back to me what I just said, and it’s amazing how we don’t hear or remember exactly what was said. Then I have them actually do the work, make sure it follows the procedures.

Joni Rocco: Because our company is based on a customer experience, we can teach production all day long. But if they struggle to have a color conversation with a home owner or they’re challenged by, you know, “How do I understand what she’s telling me? She wants brown but brown is about 8 billion different shades.” You know? So, there’s a color conversation, there’s a, “We’re going to do this, this, and this, and we’ll be here for this many days.” We have a lot of that set up already. But because we’re customer intimate, our technicians have to be customer intimate, too.

We only started talking about that about a year and a half, two years ago. Joe and I were sitting around and we were like, “Shoot, this isn’t just about sales. The experience goes all the way through production.” So, you have that, like I said, constant evolution of your offer in the market place and trying to tweak it to make it to be the best fit for who you’re really trying to target.

So, the production training. I just see that all in, you know, in what you say, too. I’ve watched him do the work, and then I watch our employees do the work, and they’re catching on and I will attempt to do some of the work. It’s a great core workout, to hand scrape a floor. So, I’ll go in and I’ll try and do it, and I am just struggling. You know, with a tiny little patch, and they’ve got a whole room done. But it’s about the touch, the application, I mean it’s just, it’s like a dance that you do with your customers, too.

John Patterson: Joni, now that you’re mentoring the fundamentals of transaction program, how does all of what we’ve been talking about correlate? You know, what kind of mastery is coming to you by mentoring the programs?

Joni Rocco: It’s helped a tremendous amount to be able to walk people through their processes and listen to where they’re struggling, and then try to help them so that they don’t suffer. I think it’s okay to struggle, and sometimes we have to suffer, too, because we decline something that we should be accepting, or you know, we’re countering something with a market place narrative that is an inaccurate. But it’s really helped me to be able to back off a little bit as a mentor, and start to ask questions and listen for certain cues as to what they need or what they’re trying to achieve.

That’s been so useful in my client relationship, too. Just to walk into a home where people say, “Well, we know we want a wood floor.” Well, what exactly do you want? Because we can do a lot here. Then listen to them, kind of talk through the, “Well, I really like this type of design and we’ve got this many kids and a dog and so I don’t want to see scratches and how can we hide those and how can we distress the floor?” Our experiences of late have been a lot more custom. Wire brushing techniques with wood, hand scraping techniques. There’s some other treatments that we do with colorants and finishes, but it’s based on, you know, “I really like this look, I saw this room on Fixer Upper and I really want it.” So, all of those things, I think, just being able to ask questions and attend to what they really want has helped a lot.

John Patterson: I’ll say this, I don’t want to out words in your mouth. So, mentoring the fundamentals of transaction program has shaped how you hear things?

Joni Rocco: Yes.

John Patterson: Yes, okay. So, I’ve often said, you know, when somebody says, “Why should I mentor a program?” Or, “Why should I mentor anything?” My first response is, well, look, you both have taken what we teach and applied it in the way that you did to your business. So, you’ve got your version of what we teach applied to your business. But now if I’ve got to apply those principles in a legal situation, at a hamburger franchise, in a large technical organization, with an independent startup.

If I’ve got to apply these principles across all these different situations, different industries, different occupations, different cultures, and I have to think through them and apply, not just from a pat answer, but really listen carefully and be able to offer some kind of recommendation based on what I can hear and what I know, it trains me in a way that I wouldn’t be trained if it was just me applying what I do to my situation again and again and again. So, any comment on all that from either one of you?

Joni Rocco: Yeah, and there’s something to be said for how I can hear something in another industry, and then pull it into my own offer as well. We’re members of many flooring groups internationally, on Facebook and other social media sites. One of the things we hear a lot is, “Well that just won’t work in my area.” So, you know, if we didn’t grow and didn’t have a lifelong learning orientation, and weren’t able to hear those things from other industries, and be able to help with that, then we wouldn’t be evolving like we are. You know, we’re not going to dump stain out of a can, so that’s my two cents on what I hear from other industries. Even the application of bringing it back to our own company, for sure.

Joe Rocco: My two cents would be, I guess, I’m not involved with the program, although I have been in the past. But I hear Joni, and obviously we talk about things that go on and her experiences with mentoring and MAP2 and all those things. We routinely talk about them and just through the conversations, she’ll say something like, you know, “There’s concept of attending to this or that.” And I’ll ask a question and then it will spark thought in my mind about how does this affect our production or our operation when at our customers’ house? Yes, we’re there to do the work, but we’re also there to attend to the fact that this customer is expecting a customer intimate experience, which goes beyond just doing X, Y and Z to have a great floor. So, that helps us.

Then we just recently had a conversation about the ethic that we surround our business with, and we had to make a very difficult choice to tell someone who is fairly close to us that something they had done was not in accordance with our business ethic, and so could you please remove that from the public’s view? It was a difficult decision to make, but it was something that came out of our teaching and our learning at Influence Ecology, and something that we’ve hold very dear. So, we made the hard decision and they accepted and we’re back to everything being okay now. So, a lot of things come out of just listening to her talk about what’s going on in her continued education and learning mentoring.

Joni Rocco: Truly the beauty of your program is that I have not yet found an industry in which the transaction cycle does not apply. It exists everywhere, from wood floors to our married life. It is a series of reciprocal exchanges, from who’s going to pick up the dry cleaning and get dinner started, to who’d going to pick up this kid and, I mean, there is a constant reciprocal exchange happening at all times. It’s just that you’re feet are in a different spot during some of those transactions. But there is no industry where it doesn’t matter. So, that in and of itself was great learneing for me, becoming a mentor and seeing how, you know, sometimes people will say, “Well, I work in government and so this whole transactional situation or becoming scarce, I can’t make that work.” And I find that to be a total cop out. I think you can make anything work when you take the care to design it and you really think through what you want to accomplish.

John Patterson: I accept, I accept.

All right, any final words? Anything else that you want to say, since we’re sitting here talk to the public? Anything else you want to say?

Joni Rocco: Just thanks, probably, is plenty. Because you really have changed our life dramatically in ways we had never expected, and to see you teach and observe this program at work impacting other people’s lives, I’m just so grateful to have you in my life, professionally as a mentor of my own, but also personally as a friend. I have a great deal of admiration for you, John, and your program is just top notch. I’m grateful to be a part of it in all of the different aspects that I’ve participated.

John Patterson: Thank you. Thank you very much.



John Patterson: In this episode, we include a small segment from our membership program webinar where we talk about knowing and deliberate practice. I offer this as teaching and mentoring, as a kind of deliberate practice for those who seek to master something. This clip includes contributions from members Brady Uselman, and Simon Chesney.

John Patterson: Well, we’re going to address deliberate practice in a particular way, but I’m certainly going to take a moment in a few minutes to talk about a kind of feedback that’s available. Because I think most don’t take advantage of a kind of feedback that may shorten the duration of time. I’ll point it more to that in just a moment. But I’m going to make sure that we understand deliberate practice specifically.

I also want to include the fact that some people are quite familiar with deliberate practice. Maybe you’ve been around Influence Ecology for a while, and so this is a familiar notion for you, or you’ve even studied it. I invite those who are in that category to listen or perhaps consider where you may be naïve, or perhaps there might be some hubris about your participation with your own practice and your aims. So, that’s one thing. Then on the other end of the spectrum, for those of you that don’t know anything about this notion of deliberate practice, we’re going to do a bit of a review of each of these items and make sure that it’s quite clear for you.

So, in doing so, starting with number one. Deliberate practice is designed to produce results using the body of knowledge which exists in each field about how performance is developed and approved. It’s not a case of someone trying spend some time talking a few practice swings, or fiddling around in a self-managed attempt to get better. Rather, deliberate practice is designed by someone who is an expert in the field and who can teach you how to get better.

So, let’s just take that one on for a second. Because I don’t think, because I’ve heard people address this and study this. I don’t think it’s that I’ve heard people talk about deliberate practice in that way. I think most people that I hear talk about deliberate practice speak about it more from the, “Well, I’m going to self-manage my attempts to practice.”

All right, Brady. So, you’re, in studying this slide, what do you want to say about it?

Brady: In the area of sales or … being an entrepreneur, I have to do sales, and I have people that are experts at sales in my network, and so, I was just thinking about how I would have practices for my conversations that I have with my clients, you know, against what my consultants or my friends would say is the best way to present what it is my company does, right?

So, I would go out in the field, I would do something. I would record my calls, tally up my results, and then I would come back and analyze those with someone that’s, let’s just say a professional, or better at sales than I am. As a way of, I would call that deliberate practice, that’s specifically designed to improve performance in the sense of being able to go back to my subsequent sales calls and basically apply what I learn. Is that kind of an example of what … ?

John Patterson: Yes, it is. It’s a perfect example of it. Perfect example. Great. Brady, anything else about that, or anything you want to ask about it?

Brady: No. I just know that I do this for things that I don’t want to do, and I do it for things that are in my specialized knowledge of the areas that I want to get better at. So, it kind of seems like something that you, any kind of activity that you need to do with an aim that requires deliberate practice, it’s kind of just something that’s available to do, if that makes sense. Even if it’s generalized knowledge, like sales, which is kind of generalized. Or if it’s specific. I still have the same kind of deliberate practice available for both those domains of knowledge.

John Patterson: Good, thank you. I’m going to go to Simon, well see if we can come back. Simon, yes please.

Simon: Well, I’ll share that I’m engaged in deliberate practice around my aim to certify as a internal scaled agile program consultant, which agile trainer, which is a train the trainer level of certification. I that context, I have a mentor who works for Scaled Agile, Inc., and I regularly meet with my mentor, who reviews my experience reports and asks me questions about them. I create opportunities to receive feedback from people who are more experienced than I am in presenting some of the topics and material.

I get feedback from Alex Boul, who is extremely accomplished in the area that I’m developing my expertise. I invite feedback from Cesar Idrovo, who I believe is on the call today, who is extremely accomplished in this area, as well.
Simon: So, those are some of the things I do to get feedback that’s useful by experts who can teach me how to get better.

John Patterson: Good. Number two, repeat it a lot. I often think of golfers, for example. I don’t play golf, but if I did, I would imagine that I might have to practice putting a lot. I’ve often heard about Tiger Woods, for example, who continues to practice the basics all the time, constantly repeated so many times that they can perform flawlessly. I think that’s one of the things that we want to focus on about deliberate practice. It’s repeat it a lot so that in all the variety of ways that you might come up against this particular situation or that situation, it allows you to perform flawlessly.

I was just having a conversation, in fact, yesterday. I was talking about leading programs. I’m talking about leading the fundamentals of transaction program, because we’ve got people who are training to lead the fundamentals of transaction program. We’ve got people who are mentoring that program and seek to certify themselves [inaudible] that program, and I was saying to Alex, “Can you imagine having to address, for 10 years, in 100 different ways, the answer to a question about how you might apply one of our principles to a situation I’ve never considered or imagined?” And that I would need to be able to, in the moment, in the moment, make what I’m saying or what they’re asking, make those things relevant. There is an ability that I performed over time, through practice, and I’ve had so many of the people who are mentoring the fundamentals of transaction program talk about the extreme value of that kind of practice. Same with people who have continued to show up on the FOT calls, and listening to them, because they’re in constant state of evolution.

After a while, you start to hear the ways in which you might perform in the moment. The things that matter to you.



John Patterson: My special thanks to our guests Joe and Joni Rocco. In our shows notes, you’ll find links to connect with them and all the links to websites, books, or downloads mentioned in this podcast.

The Influence Ecology Podcast is produced by Influence Ecology, LLC in Ventura, California. This episode was recorded May 23rd, 2019 and was produced by Tyson Crandall and John Patterson. You can find a transcript for this and other episodes at InfluenceEcology.com. This episode is made possible through the assistance of the Influence Ecology Faculty, Staff, Mentors, and Students around the world. Co-founder Kirkland Tibbels and our colleagues comprise an international collective of professionals who are active in the development of the philosophy of Transactionalism and the discipline of Transactional Competence. Kirkland is considered a leading philosopher and authority in the field and he has authored more than 500 papers on the subject, study, and discipline.

This episode includes contributions by Karal Gregory. The podcast theme is by Chris Standring and titled ‘Fast Train to Everywhere.’ You can subscribe to the Influence Ecology Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn or via email at podcast@influenceecology.com.

If you haven’t yet offered a rating or review, I ask that you take a moment go to iTunes or your podcast app and let us know what you think. This helps us more than you know.

Influence Ecology is the leading business education specializing in Transactional Competence, having published and contributed to the only comprehensive text on the subject, Transactionalism: An Historic and Interpretive Study by Trevor J. Phillips. Co-Founder Kirkland Tibbels has authored more than 500 papers on the subject, study, and discipline of transactional competence and is a sought-after lecturer at universities, major corporations, and civic organizations around the world. 

Influence Ecology’s curriculum includes conferences, webinars, online tools, podcasts, and mentorship utilized by men and women in over seventy countries around the world. Our membership includes an international assembly of accomplished professionals, faculty, and peers from a variety of countries, industries, and cultures.